It's almost like the additional conservative and liberal voters are just two sides of the same coin. What I'm trying to understand is if that's really so and it seems to me that there are factors that seem to throw us a bit off kilter. Take, for instance, a coworker of mine. He doesn't usually present as an extremist but I think he really is. He's overly concerned about how Jews are turning people gay and how trans people are allowed to use bathrooms. He's overly concerned that he's being persecuted for his brand of white supremacist Christianity. He's extremely concerned and upset about his perceived loss of privilege because he lives in a world where he's expected to treat people fairly and equally. He says that if it weren't for Black people complaining about unequal treatment, there would be no racism ... Black people are the real racists. He hates the government. He doesn't hate it in a way like having a healthy critical approach to it, but rather, Satan has something to do with it. He says this was once a Christian nation. His church seems to share his beliefs. He's not alone. He reports that there would never be a shooting at his church because many of the members who attend are cops who are always armed.
In a sense, Trump gave my coworker an opportunity to feel his oats. He saw in Trump a reflection of his own beliefs. It seems that he was always searching for a like this. I remember he was a big fan of Palin and Cain. These people didn't win their party's nomination. I'm not sure the other side of the coin is the same. The elite, I assume it's them, seem to be funding and pushing these kinds of ideas. The left, though there are some who don't seem to be entirely rooted in reality, don't seem to receive the same impetus as this right, or alt-right, or whatever it is we're calling them,
People like my coworker are not people who have ever been satisfied with the candidates listed on the ballot. I've never seen myself in any of them, to be honest, and have frequently held my nose as I voted for the candidates of my choice. I think some of these non-voters couldn't even do that. Lastly, my co-worker has a warped view of the founding of this country and much of it's history. I think it's mostly shaped by the latest meme or email that's been sent out, or his church, and does not represent any kind of actual reading, study, or thought. One time, I asked him about the social contract and he told me he never signed a contract.
Greg, you are always provocative. People like your co-worker are a puzzle to many of us. They just don't present as "real." I know they are, but I still can't help seeing them as fictional in a sense. The challenge is to try to see the world wholly from their perspective. And then ask does such a person fit in some way into the economic analysis that I've been making? Clearly, he expresses intense dissatisfaction with how he believes he is viewed (and disrespected by "an elite" (people whose judgement matters and who he fears are taking over his America). Trump did, as he saw Trump, give his beliefs more than just acceptance. Trump was able to confirm his view of himself (or the view he sought to own) as worthy, valid in a way that elevated him and his beliefs to a master status in society. The competitive nature of American life is always judging you. And the media is in your face with images of what real success and fulfillment looks like. The nature of one's work and the monetary compensation that one receives makes one vulnerable to disrespect. In a society where we read are own worth in the eyes of others, like looking into a mirror, we desperately want to be reflected as everything that a person should and can be. Trump "saved" your coworker from, shall we call it, status self-pity. Feeling the disrespect of those with high position in the society (remember the deplorable comment) he found an almost rebirth in the way he imagined Trump saw him. Maybe not for your coworker but for many in the industrial world of the 21st century, the lessened value of so much of the work we do (machines will do it better, foreigners here or back in their own countries, will do it as well) is always crowding into awareness. It is not highly regarded work. It is not high tech, it is at risk of becoming obsolete; he is at risk of becoming as a worker a non-person. This is how I would tie in the status argument with the larger economic picture. But there is much more here. By associating himself America and with God's people, he is compensating for a powerless self-image. And when these identities are mocked, he is mocked.
And offended comes easily. I think what we see here is a (not so small) parallel world held together, not by reason, but by emotions. Economics, not so much, at least not directly. It's a parallel world where these emotions are in the family connections, church, friends, meme creators, talking heads that give everyone their instructions to remain in the group. Facts are rejected though a number of means like inoculation, it's the messenger, stuff like that. "Elites" matter only in that they have a funnel into which their message pours to then be distributed and amplified. It helps with the "us" and "them". I'm not so sure the people in this world are voting in higher number because they were ignored and their economic situation is worsening, I think that maybe they're voting more because they've been discovered (abortion!) by those who use them.
Yes, and then it is their discovery of the fact that Tucker Carlson or Donald Trump is praising them, is validating their reality, their ideas, their worth. That's the face looking back at them, that tells them they are the true America, a white, original, Christian America. Before, as you said, they sheltered together. I don't doubt, though, that they heard the voices from outside. You can't shelter easily in a mass media society. The rejections get through. You live where? A trailer court? You watch what on television? Not PBS. As for the economic side. It underlies the whole and contributes to both insecurity and a feeling of having somehow failed, missed the opportunities that you were promised as an American. You face a dilemma. You support your own sense of self-worth by your identity as an American, where everyone has a fair chance of success. And at the same time you aren't making it. You've failed America --- unless ... Someone has taken it from you. Allied with the government they have taken what was yours. Blacks, immigrants, foreigners. And Trump, who you respect, because he is super rich and a celebrity, looks you in eye, and says "I love you."
We see the same group. My thinking here is of individuals within the group who are not directly affected by loss of economic performance. They don't seem to fit the narrative. Instead, people like my coworker are performing well by any objective measure and still identify with narratives of the group.
My very first class at Heidelberg was Statistics. The very first statement about statistics made in that class was "whenever you group information, you lose information". And though the point of statistics is to learn by grouping information, (which is something I love to do), it's also my point that we have to remember the keep information from getting lost in our narratives.
Yes, all models are reductionist. They create a closed world that leaves out important information. And what is left out is important in its own right. Usually. When someone doesn't fit the narrative it suggests the possibility of new narratives. That is essentially what Kuhn is talking about when he discusses paradigms. I want to hold on to the economic threat narrative as far as possible. The alternative, the loss of status (or value in the eyes of others) is indirectly tied, I think, to the economic dimension. As we move more and more toward a post-industrial order (where work is the management of robots and complex technological processes) the old work is devalued and there is a threat that it may be supplanted. It does depend upon the person, though. There is an individual component. How much is a person linked to external sources of identity and worth. We identify with abstractions and we reify them, such as the nation. Disparage, or seem to, the USA, and for some people you are demeaning them. There are also conceptions of life, like the "honor" perspective, that sees personal worth in masculine traits of bravery, physical superiority, honor in battle, etc. That is being "taken down" by changes in our culture.
Yes. Different narratives and surely economic threats and losses are part of that. I guess I'm just looking at other narratives. Like this example, 200,000 Cuban Americans in Florida voted for the first time and voted for Trump.
It's almost like the additional conservative and liberal voters are just two sides of the same coin. What I'm trying to understand is if that's really so and it seems to me that there are factors that seem to throw us a bit off kilter. Take, for instance, a coworker of mine. He doesn't usually present as an extremist but I think he really is. He's overly concerned about how Jews are turning people gay and how trans people are allowed to use bathrooms. He's overly concerned that he's being persecuted for his brand of white supremacist Christianity. He's extremely concerned and upset about his perceived loss of privilege because he lives in a world where he's expected to treat people fairly and equally. He says that if it weren't for Black people complaining about unequal treatment, there would be no racism ... Black people are the real racists. He hates the government. He doesn't hate it in a way like having a healthy critical approach to it, but rather, Satan has something to do with it. He says this was once a Christian nation. His church seems to share his beliefs. He's not alone. He reports that there would never be a shooting at his church because many of the members who attend are cops who are always armed.
In a sense, Trump gave my coworker an opportunity to feel his oats. He saw in Trump a reflection of his own beliefs. It seems that he was always searching for a like this. I remember he was a big fan of Palin and Cain. These people didn't win their party's nomination. I'm not sure the other side of the coin is the same. The elite, I assume it's them, seem to be funding and pushing these kinds of ideas. The left, though there are some who don't seem to be entirely rooted in reality, don't seem to receive the same impetus as this right, or alt-right, or whatever it is we're calling them,
People like my coworker are not people who have ever been satisfied with the candidates listed on the ballot. I've never seen myself in any of them, to be honest, and have frequently held my nose as I voted for the candidates of my choice. I think some of these non-voters couldn't even do that. Lastly, my co-worker has a warped view of the founding of this country and much of it's history. I think it's mostly shaped by the latest meme or email that's been sent out, or his church, and does not represent any kind of actual reading, study, or thought. One time, I asked him about the social contract and he told me he never signed a contract.
And then came Trump.
Greg, you are always provocative. People like your co-worker are a puzzle to many of us. They just don't present as "real." I know they are, but I still can't help seeing them as fictional in a sense. The challenge is to try to see the world wholly from their perspective. And then ask does such a person fit in some way into the economic analysis that I've been making? Clearly, he expresses intense dissatisfaction with how he believes he is viewed (and disrespected by "an elite" (people whose judgement matters and who he fears are taking over his America). Trump did, as he saw Trump, give his beliefs more than just acceptance. Trump was able to confirm his view of himself (or the view he sought to own) as worthy, valid in a way that elevated him and his beliefs to a master status in society. The competitive nature of American life is always judging you. And the media is in your face with images of what real success and fulfillment looks like. The nature of one's work and the monetary compensation that one receives makes one vulnerable to disrespect. In a society where we read are own worth in the eyes of others, like looking into a mirror, we desperately want to be reflected as everything that a person should and can be. Trump "saved" your coworker from, shall we call it, status self-pity. Feeling the disrespect of those with high position in the society (remember the deplorable comment) he found an almost rebirth in the way he imagined Trump saw him. Maybe not for your coworker but for many in the industrial world of the 21st century, the lessened value of so much of the work we do (machines will do it better, foreigners here or back in their own countries, will do it as well) is always crowding into awareness. It is not highly regarded work. It is not high tech, it is at risk of becoming obsolete; he is at risk of becoming as a worker a non-person. This is how I would tie in the status argument with the larger economic picture. But there is much more here. By associating himself America and with God's people, he is compensating for a powerless self-image. And when these identities are mocked, he is mocked.
And offended comes easily. I think what we see here is a (not so small) parallel world held together, not by reason, but by emotions. Economics, not so much, at least not directly. It's a parallel world where these emotions are in the family connections, church, friends, meme creators, talking heads that give everyone their instructions to remain in the group. Facts are rejected though a number of means like inoculation, it's the messenger, stuff like that. "Elites" matter only in that they have a funnel into which their message pours to then be distributed and amplified. It helps with the "us" and "them". I'm not so sure the people in this world are voting in higher number because they were ignored and their economic situation is worsening, I think that maybe they're voting more because they've been discovered (abortion!) by those who use them.
Yes, and then it is their discovery of the fact that Tucker Carlson or Donald Trump is praising them, is validating their reality, their ideas, their worth. That's the face looking back at them, that tells them they are the true America, a white, original, Christian America. Before, as you said, they sheltered together. I don't doubt, though, that they heard the voices from outside. You can't shelter easily in a mass media society. The rejections get through. You live where? A trailer court? You watch what on television? Not PBS. As for the economic side. It underlies the whole and contributes to both insecurity and a feeling of having somehow failed, missed the opportunities that you were promised as an American. You face a dilemma. You support your own sense of self-worth by your identity as an American, where everyone has a fair chance of success. And at the same time you aren't making it. You've failed America --- unless ... Someone has taken it from you. Allied with the government they have taken what was yours. Blacks, immigrants, foreigners. And Trump, who you respect, because he is super rich and a celebrity, looks you in eye, and says "I love you."
We see the same group. My thinking here is of individuals within the group who are not directly affected by loss of economic performance. They don't seem to fit the narrative. Instead, people like my coworker are performing well by any objective measure and still identify with narratives of the group.
My very first class at Heidelberg was Statistics. The very first statement about statistics made in that class was "whenever you group information, you lose information". And though the point of statistics is to learn by grouping information, (which is something I love to do), it's also my point that we have to remember the keep information from getting lost in our narratives.
Yes, all models are reductionist. They create a closed world that leaves out important information. And what is left out is important in its own right. Usually. When someone doesn't fit the narrative it suggests the possibility of new narratives. That is essentially what Kuhn is talking about when he discusses paradigms. I want to hold on to the economic threat narrative as far as possible. The alternative, the loss of status (or value in the eyes of others) is indirectly tied, I think, to the economic dimension. As we move more and more toward a post-industrial order (where work is the management of robots and complex technological processes) the old work is devalued and there is a threat that it may be supplanted. It does depend upon the person, though. There is an individual component. How much is a person linked to external sources of identity and worth. We identify with abstractions and we reify them, such as the nation. Disparage, or seem to, the USA, and for some people you are demeaning them. There are also conceptions of life, like the "honor" perspective, that sees personal worth in masculine traits of bravery, physical superiority, honor in battle, etc. That is being "taken down" by changes in our culture.
Yes. Different narratives and surely economic threats and losses are part of that. I guess I'm just looking at other narratives. Like this example, 200,000 Cuban Americans in Florida voted for the first time and voted for Trump.